My Debate With “KISStheSon” A Freewiller

She is quite acquainted with the scriptures. But she believes in “freewill”.

Below are some of my replies to her. I might include some of her comments.



“We are free to respond to God’s influence and e are free to respond to Satan’s influence. If only God’s will was being done today Jesus wouldn’t have taught the Jews to pray for the Kingdom to come so that God’s will would be done on earth as it is in heaven. God gave the earth to man, and Satan is the god of this world. We are being saved FROM the power of Satan UNTO God THROUGH the truth. Satan’s power is lies. We don’t have the freedom to fly, but we do have the freedom to respond to life-giving truth that God sent into the whole world to be freely received and responded to as we will.”


As I recall, Eph 1:10 or maybe verse 11 says GOD IS OPERATING ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL. … did you see that… He is operating ALL THINGS…. not some things… all things. Its’ good news really.


How do you explain the elect that rebel against God?


Dear Kiss, if the elect rebel against God, it does not “prove” they had a “freewill” as the term is loosely used. As revealed in Romans 9, God makes some vessels for honor and some for dishonor. Everyone has a “will” but a person’s will not not without influence, or causal factors. It’s not a “free” will… it’s more of a “bondage will” than a “free will”. RE: the “freewill offering” it’s just the given name of an offering… it loosely describes the kind of offering being discussed. We often used figures of speech to communicate, but our figures are not meant to be literal, ALL THE TIME… that would be exhausting, like talking to a five year old. A father could FORCE a son to make a “freewill” offering… tradition could CAUSE a fellow to make a “freewill” offering… peer pressure could MOTIVATE a “freewill” offering. In either case… there IS an influential factor, and you and I are trying to figure this thing out. Right? I’m suggest that GOD IS THE TRUE CAUSAL FACTOR behind all things. Isaiah 45:7 tells us that God created both good and evil. I’m telling you Dear Kiss, that it’s OK, God is in total control. It appears confusing at the moment. But we must trust God and God’s eonian purpose (see Eph 3:11). Creation will not be complete until the eons are finished, then God will be All in all (I COR 15:28). I was thinking I should share this verse with you today: “It is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight” (Philippians 2:13, CV). In other words, dear Kiss, you delight God.


God doesn’t make vessels FOR honor and FOR dishonor. He makes vessels regardless of what they become and whatever they become he will use them for his pleasure.


DEAR Kiss, your most recent reply was awesome. Before I have to go, I wanted to share with you how I see things now, regarding the Bible. I started reading it many years ago. It always seemed too monumental. So big. Somewhat confusing. But with nuggets here and there. Somehow, along the way, I discovered that Paul is our Apostle. And that Peter, James and John were give the circumcision gospel–one that’s not for us. Only Paul was sent to the Gentiles, the pagans, the “uncircumcision”. You can read about this HUGE fight… a knock down, drag-out MMA style fight between Peter and Paul at the Church in Antioch… in the first two chapters of Galatians. There Paul reveals that he got Peter in a choke hold and made him admit that “God indeed gave Paul THE gospel of the uncircumcision… while he gave Peter THE gospel of the circumcision.” In other words Paul’s message to us gentiles is unique, and not to be mixed up with the circumcision gospel. Otherwise you mix them up and get a pot of soup. The word GOSPEL in the New Testament is a common noun, and there are quite a few “gospels” to consider. The “gospel” about Christ’s birth, (from the angels to the shepards) is not the same “gospel” concerning his death and resurrection. My point: not all “good news” is about the same topic nor does it apply to the same people… the word just means GOOD NEWS. So, dear Kiss, it seems to me, if you just focus on Paul’s letters (Paul’s revelation) and not focus so much on the rest of the Bible, you’d do better. Why? The rest of the Bible is all about and for Israel… and their role in God’s plan. God’s role for us (the Church which is His body) is different than his role for Israel. And don’t think the Church and the “bride” are the same thing. They’re not. The bride (spoken of in John’s book of Revelations) is concerning Israel. The circumcision gospel is all about GRACE AND WORKS… whereas the gospel of the UNcircumcision is about GRACE AND FAITH. BIG DIFFERENCE. I know that we began our discussion on the matter of man’s will… but you keep bringing in writings from the circumcision gospel to justify your position. It’s not that Peter, James and John were all “freewill” all the time, but their message is very WORKS oriented. Start with Paul… allow him to be your new foundation. After all, in COL 1:25 he tells us that God gave it to him TO COMPLETE THE WORD OF GOD. In other words, Paul sees and reveals things that James and the boys cannot know (yet). I hope these thought help you… I feel that in a way, when you limit your study to Paul’s message, YOU EXPAND your thinking greatly. And I feel that if you don’t “rightly divide the word of truth”…(2 Timothy 2:15) you make a big mess of things. Many people point out “contradictions” in the bible… and most of them are instantly cleared up, IF you “divide” the circumcision gospel from the UNcircumcision gospel. Grace to you dear Kiss.

Dear Kiss, For even as in Adam, so in Christ… I Cor 15:22… all die, all are vivified.


The keyword is IN. Those IN Christ THROUGH faith IN HIM will be vivified in HIS likeness and those OUT of Christ because they refused to COME IN will be vivified unto their judgement. The scriptures promise that all will be vivified but not all will be vivified unto everlasting life WITH Christ ON the face of the earth. Some will be vivified after the Millenium reign unto the great white throne judgment and they will be cast FROM the face of the earth and after their judgment, there will be no TIME. Time is giving so that we may have time to come to the knowledge of the truth and put our trust in HIM. I promise you that God’s patience will run out towards those that REJECT the blood of his Son and their judgment will be JUST.


Dearest Kiss, “the keyword is IN… For even as IN Adam, all die… do they “believe” in Adam… and thus die? No they are IN Adam even if they don’t “believe” in Adam. THUS ALSO… all are IN Christ even if they don’t yet “believe” in Christ. FOR… even as… so also… You will die, because you are IN Adam, even if you don’t “believe” in Adam. COL 1:16… says Christ is the firstborn of all creation. IN Him all things were created. So, Dear Kiss, all are IN HIM, just as all humanity is IN Adam.

Dearest Kissington, Romans 5:20 says THE LAW WAS GIVEN THAT SIN MIGHT INCREASE. Sin, is NOT an impossible obstacle to salvation but a prerequisite to salvation. He did not die for the sinless but for sinners. To save sinners. Not merely to give them a chance to do the right thing and save themselves. HE IS THE SAVIOR, not ‘you are your own savior by your correct action and belief. HE IS.

Do you know much about the fist fight that happened between Peter and Paul? OMG, it was bloody. Paul had to get Peter in a chokehold, and make him tap out. You can read about it in the first two chapters of Galatians. You see, Paul was hanging out with the brothers in Antioch. A church of mostly pagans, gentiles, “the uncircumcised”. Well it turns out that when some “came from James”, Peter started laying the guilt-trip, law, and obedience junk on them, and Paul would have none of it. You see, Dear Kiss, the circumcision gospel is not to be mixed up with the uncircumcision gospel. Two different gospels for two different groups with two different purposes in God’s big plan. God’s plan for the Jews, in the kingdom era, is very “Earth” focus… remember “the meek shall inherit the Earth”… yet Paul tells the Church, which is his body, that “our realm is inherently in the heavens”. So, it turns out that the Law is important… FOR THE JEWS… but we, gentiles “were never given the law.” And Peter’s attitude was wrong. God’s plan for the gentiles was a “secret” (not a “mystery” as in the KJV)… but it was a “secret” not revealed before… before Paul was given the message. Paul says in Col 1:25, that it was given to him TO COMPLETE THE WORD OF GOD. THIS FIGHT, between Peter and Paul was a serious matter, so serious that Paul devotes two entire chapters to it, to make sure we see what a big deal it was. It doesn’t help to mix up the two gospels. Grace reigns. Yours

you quoted this: “except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus” I’m so glad to be saved by the faith of Christ. Why? Because I don’t trust my own faith. You see, I don’t have faith in my faith.

It’s Saturday… one cup so far. So let’s see if I’m caught up here… 1. My first question to you was IS GOD CERTAIN? And you seemed to agree with that idea, that YES God is certain…BUT… 2. Then, my next question was… DOES GOD OPERATE IN ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY? Your reply to this question was one of avoidance. You would not, or could not say that “YES, God does operate in certainty.” 3. My next question was going to be… IS SALVATION THE CERTAIN WORK OF GOD? But I don’t think I can even ask that question… because you apparently don’t believe God operates in certainty. Therefore salvation (the work of God) cannot be certain. 4. My 4th question was going to be… IS SALVATION CERTAIN FOR ALL UNSAVED CREATURES? And I must assume your answer to that question would be “Forget about it.” 5. Finally, I was going to reply that this whole line of questioning … ties together the work of God, back to God… if God’s work of salvation is NOT certain for all His creatures, then God must be operating in the realm of chance and gambling… rather than certainty. Thus, a gambling God, is no god at all. In essence we’re own our own. We must generate our own salvation with little to no help from the Creator of all, who is obviously the savior of none. Kiss, I’m not there. I believe God is certain. I believe God operates in certainty. I believe salvation IS the certain work of God. And I believe salvation is certain for all creatures, because God does not operate in uncertainty. Your picture is that of a “god” who gambles with his creation, and doesn’t know the outcome and must destroy that which He began as it did not come out like He had hoped. A dismal picture indeed. Now, with that thought aside, do you believe that I will go to hell for believing that God is the savior of all? Yours for a Saturday morning.


You first asked me if I was certain God existed and my answer was yes. Then you asked me if God operated in absolute certainty and I answered that God is in control but not controlling. How does that make the fact that God exists come into question? Does he have to control the thoughts and actions of his creation in absolute certainty in order to exist? I believe God can still exist and have created a world with free-thinking creatures able to come out of darkness through the truth that he sends into the world to enable us to COME OUT of darkness. Just because we can’t earn our own righteousness according to our ability to obtain God’s moral law perfectly, doesn’t mean we can’t acknowledge that we don’t have that ability. Our spirit that God gave us is willing to do and love God’s law, but our flesh is weak and it cannot. The flesh cannot please God, but we CAN acknowledge and accept that. We CAN also love God and his law and hate the flesh. We CAN also hear and learn that we have a way OUT and GO THROUGH THE WAY. AFTER we GO the way that we learned we may go by receiving the message that God sent, we are then given the Holy Spirit which witnesses with our spirit that we have become a child a God and the Spirit will now help our spirit turn from the desires of the flesh. Matthew 26:41 “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”


I ask about the certainty of God, and your reply contained the word WE… twelve times… 1. we can’t earn

2. we can’t

3. we don’t

4. we CAN.

5. we CAN also .

6. we CAN also hear

7. we have a way

8. we GO

9. we learned

10. we may go

11. we are then given

12. we have become

You seem to put more emphasis and thus power in the creature than you do the Creator. I don’t think you believe and rely on God, you believe in man’s ability and action. It must be because your ability and actions are such a shining example of power. You must be proud of yourself. Well, I concur… I’m proud of you too.

you seem to love God’s word. I thought you might enjoy these bible teachers:

Colossians 1: 16 …for IN Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him, 17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him. Love that verse. Hope you do too.


I love that verse, it is all the proof we need to understand that Jesus purchased all things with his BLOOD. All things belong to the Son, but He is not IN all things until after we put our TRUST in his BLOOD.


Do you ever use a concordance, to aid in your studies? If so, have you spent any time studying the word commonly translated AGE, ETERNAL, WORLD, FOR EVER, FOR EVER AND EVER, NEVER, etc.?

If I remember correctly, that word (AION) shows up 192 times in the New Testament. It shows up in the plural… as well… imagine that… the word ETERNAL in the plural… what a trip, huh? The reason you should do a study on the matter is that words matter. And IF the word AION has limits, then we should know that, agreed? I’d say, one of the most confusing elements in human understanding, is our concept of TIME.

If God is trying to communicate something about TIME, and we haphazardly sometimes translate the word AION as AGE and sometimes as ETERNAL, we might lose something, right? One verse says “the end of the ages”… now try to fit that into an idea of THE END OF THE ETERNALS. Hmmmm… confusing right? Young’s Literal Translation, as well as the Concordant Literal translation (and 3 other translations) have correct solved this TIME problem by being consistent… using AGE, AGE-LASTING or EON, EONIAN as the English words to represent THAT ONE Greek word AION.

You see, Dear Kiss, God has a plan and a purpose… it’s called GOD EONIAN PURPOSE. (See Eph 3:11) It’s not “God’s Eternal Purpose”… as the word PURPOSE by itself puts limits on the time word. I used to be a part of the Gene Edwards group in Isla Vista. (It was a spin-off of Witness Lee’s Local Church movement.) And both Lee and Edwards based their group(s) on the idea that they were the culmination of “God’s eternal purpose.” — In a nutshell both groups had it that they were THE CHURCH and they would rule and reign with Christ eternally. You can imagine what kind of pride that teaching would lead them into.

But I have concluded that GOD’S EONIAN PURPOSE is much bigger, much more grand, than GOD’S ETERNAL PURPOSE. After all, rulership, authority and power will be abolished with God becomes all in all. (I COR 15:20-28) Including Christ’s rulership “for He must reign UNTIL He puts his enemies under His feet.” (Enemies listed in this text: rulership, authority, power and death).

The EONIAN GOD vs the ETERNAL GOD. As near as we can understand things with our puny minds, of course God is “eternal”… Is water “wet”… of course.

But Dear Kiss, it seems to me, that we’d want to know if God is “eonian”. Like “daily” bread might last for more than one day… so too the EONIAN GOD is not limited by the eons. Why should He be limited by the eons, He created the eons in Christ. But, we want to know that God is with us during the eonian times. The scriptures DON’T use the term ETERNAL GOD… but they do reference our EONIAN GOD. And if God chose to use the term EONIAN why should we force a connotation on that term that is not there? RE: “for ever and ever… it actually says FOR THE EONS OF THE EONS. (a reference to the final, glorious eons planned?) It clearly says OF THE … not AND… So, if you love what God has actually said, then, why not say FOR THE EVERS OF THE EVERS? You see, if you stick to what was SAID, without forcing your ideas on the words, it might change your views. RE: FOR THE EONS OF THE EONS… it’s a polytiton… an idiom we find in the Hebrew… like KING OF KINGS, HOLY OF HOLIES… THE BEST OF THE BEST.

The bible doesn’t tell us much, regarding what happens after the eons are done. There are hints, like God becoming All in All…(I COR 15:28)… not ALL IN SOME, as you suggest, nor SOME IN ALL, but instead, it’s that one day, God will be ALL IN ALL. RE: those who “abide in death”… they can only “abide in death” as long as death exists… but I COR 15:25 says DEATH WILL BE ABOLISHED… THE LAST ENEMY ABOLISHED… and if DEATH (the wages of sin) is abolished, all will be made alive in Christ, as I COR. 15:22 says. FOR EVEN AS IN ADAM, ALL DIE, SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. Will you be upset if God becomes All in All? Ya know, as a bible teacher (and you are a good one)… you should consider I TIM 4:11… where it TELLS you what you should teach… “THESE THINGS COMMAND AND TEACH”… it says. What things? Back up to verse 10 and it says GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL, ESPECIALLY OF BELIEVERS. THAT… Dear Sister, is what you should teach… it says so… that God is the Savior of All, not exclusively of believers, BUT ESPECIALLY of believers. When a brother first pointed this verse out to me, I was mad at Paul for using such language. “Paul, how could you use such loose language?” I was internally screaming at Paul… “Don’t you know that such language might lead folks to believe that God is the Savior of All… and we know Paul, that that ain’t true. How could you???”

There is a chart of the eonian times. Found here: You might find it helpful to see that in the chart, everything is addressed as near as possible. Let me know your impression.


Do you think I’ll go to hell for believing that God is the savior of all?


Let’s put it this way. Jesus PURGED our sins by HIS blood, right?

Let’s say we are now without sin, right?

However, we are still missing one very important thing.

We are void of God.

We are void of God’s word which is able to make us wise unto salvation.

We are void of God’s Son.

We are void of the truth.

We are EMPTY and dead inside.

God SENT His Son, Word, and truth so that we may LIVE…He is FOOD to EAT so that we may live WITH Him and IN Him and HIm IN us by ONE Spirit…His Spirit.

We RECEIVE His Spirit unto LIFE after we hear the gospel of our salvation and PUT our TRUST in the Son and then the Son seals us with His Spirit. Even without sin, we are still NOT righteous.

We must RECEIVE the IMPUTED righteousness of Christ Jesus by FAITH in HIS righteousness. The spirit of anti-Christ works IN those that have received that spirit by EATING his lies…we must PURGE the spirit of anti-Christ by denouncing the lies that he fed us and RECEIVE the Holy Spirit by faith in the one that gives LIFE. He is the GIVER and we are the RECEIVERS. We are what we EAT!


I asked if I will go to hell, if I believe GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL… and YOU REPLY: “Only those void of the Spirit of God/Christ will go to a place void of God. Refusing to EAT the truth and HOLDING to lies resists the Holy Spirit. We are sent to..” MY QUESTION IS GOD CENTRIC, AND YOUR ANSWER WAS MAN CENTRIC. One might assume from your answer, is that man is his own savior.

Come closer Kiss, I want to share with your an article that will melt your heart. It’s the most amazing essay about our Redeemer yet. Take a few moments, and consider this:
That article is filled with errors. We are not related to Christ. We are adopted by His Spirit. We become a NEW creature by receiving His Spirit. ALL things are not created IN Him, all things are created BY Him. He is the Word of God…God SAID let there be light and there was light. Jesus is the “God SAID” Okay, all were made OUT of God by His Word and it WAS good until it BECAME not so good…so, to get back IN Him we must go THROUGH the Son…we have ACCESS into his grace THROUGH His Son. It’s SO SIMPLE and God made us ABLE. We are NOT able to be righteous, but we are able to LEARN that we aren’t able to be righteous…the gospel is the GOOD NEWS that teaches us that ALL can come THROUGH Christ, EVEN the most horrific of sinners CAN COME. That is GOOD NEWS! Reading the errors is PAINFUL.
DEAREST KISS, you seem to be saying that you MUST believe to be saved. In other words, you’re NOT saved, now, but if you believe you are NOT saved, then believe you ARE saved, you will be saved. In other words, you’re suggesting a subjective thingy.
It’s like saying the moon is made of cheese if you believe it’s made of cheese. But it seems to me, salvation must be objective before any belief has any meaning. I say you MUST believe for it is true that Christ died for your sins.
Not that you “must” believe to make it true. He did died for your sins. And therefore, your debt has been paid. Your insistence on FREEWILL acceptance to make it true… denies what was actually achieved on the cross.
If a rich man, comes through your town, (say Atlanta) and pays off everyone’s mortgage in the middle of the night, AS A GIFT, without telling you, you may “not believe it”… but it is true nonetheless. No one will kick you out of your house for your lack of belief. Let’s say you’re on death row and due to be put to death next month… and the Governor issued you a complete pardon and says you’re to be released tomorrow… and YOU DON’T BELIEVE IT… will they kill you just because you don’t believe it? No, they are going to FORCEABLY kick you out of jail whether or not you believe it.
If Christ died for all, and His death was efficacious, then salvation is the result and you MUST believe for it is true. Punishment is not eternal, it’s eonian. The eons will come to an end. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was not an “offer” — like dealing with a used car salesman… like that’s all it accomplished… Christ is the offering, he’s not making an offer. Christ is the firstfruit of those who are reposing.
Now, I admit that not all believe… YET.
But their lack of believe does not effect the work of God in the cross of Christ. He did rise… and that means everything. You see, salvation is both an event and a process. In one sense, we were all saved 2,000 years ago, long before we were born, before we sinned, before we ‘believed”. He did say IT IS FINISHED. In another sense, we “are being” saved, as we turn our hearts and minds toward the truth. In yet another sense, we will ultimately be saved when death, the last enemy is abolish, and God becomes All in All. If the rich man pays off your mortgage,
YOU MUST BELIEVE even though it sounds outrageous. If the Governor pardons you and releases you from prison, YOU MUST BELIEVE even though it’s hard to believe. If Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, and did so by His work on the cross, YOU MUST BELIEVE even though it sounds wild and out of control. If you don’t believe… the net result is the same… something was accomplished for sinners. And that something was salvation. During the eons, some are LOST… During the eons, some face DESTRUCTION. Funny thing, the words LOST and DESTROYED are the same word in the Greek New Testament. So, the LOST SHEEP is not necessarily a permanent condition.
The destroyed/lost sheep can yet be found. Why? Because of what was accomplished in Christ’s cross. To limit His accomplishments by saying it has no effect unless you believe it has an effect is short shifting Christ’s efforts and accomplishments and achievements.
CHRIST did not “offer” to die for you, He died for you. He was the offering.
good news… 14 Yet the grace of our Lord overwhelms, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. 15 Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom am I. “overwhelms”… hmmmm… sounds like “force”. And yet, this is a “faithful saying.”
“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, BECAUSUE WE TRUST in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”
We suffer REPROACH because we are BRINGING the TRUTH to people who put their trust in OTHER gods.
We are sent to TEACH them to put their trust in the one and ONLY Savior. especially: used to single out one person, thing, or situation over all others.
We are SINGLED OUT and SET APART by HIS Spirit…those that FIRST trust in Christ Jesus, receive His Spirit.
First, we TRUST and then we RECEIVE. God is building His NEW creation OUT of Satan’s kingdom ON the foundation of TRUST.
If you are not standing on the foundation you will sink…the ONLY reason anyone will not stand on the foundation of truth is PRIDE and God HATES pride and those who love pride HATE God.
NOTE: you emphasize WE, not God, who is the savior of all.
So do I have it straight that you believe ALL are IN Christ right now?
It’s not a stretch to believe that even as in Adam all die… nor is it hard to believe that so in Christ shall all be made alive. (See I COR 15:22)
I’ve been a farmer for quite some time… and if you take an apple seed, it’s not hard to imagine thousands of apples and apple trees IN that seed. Perhaps an untold number. But all of the future apples are IN that seed, ya see.
And Adam was the first of us… And Christ is the firstborn of all creation. … for in Him is all created (COL 1:16)
Colossians 1:16 For BY him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created BY him, and for him:
All things are created BY Him and THROUGH Him were all things created. We are MADE perfect IN Him and BECOMING a NEW creature for the NEW creation. “for (IN?) Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created (THROUGH!) Him and for Him, So, which is it from the version you choose to trust?
Are we made IN Him or THROUGH Him, the author can’t seem to make up his mind?
I assure you that the NEW creation is being made IN Him THROUGH faith IN HIM.
1 Corinthians 15 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST’S at his coming. … THEN COMETH THE END —————————-
The end of what?
According to the context, the end of the making-alive process.
In other words, we might say there are 3 stages to this making-alive process…
STAGE ONE: CHRIST, the firstfruit
STAGE TWO: They that are Christ’s.
STAGE THREE: The finishing up of the process of making all alive in Christ.
We assume this “end” will also happen at the end of the eons, but it’s not discussed here. But it is implied as it IMMEDIATELY goes on to say it happens when Christ gives up His kingdom and abolishes, rule, authority and power. And God becomes All in All.
Not all in some like you. But all in all.
REGARDING: Prepositions… you want to haggle over whether or not all are made IN Christ or BY Christ… those to prepositions are so close, so very close. Perhaps we can solve it with Romans 11:36… all is out of God, through God and for God. Grace to you.

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